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	<title>Comments on: Expert and Novice Programmers</title>
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	<link>http://www.procata.com/blog/archives/2005/05/10/expert-programmers/</link>
	<description>PHP Programming, Web Development, PHP Advocacy and PHP Best Practices.</description>
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		<title>By: Programming Your Way out of a Paper Bag &#124; PHPkitchen</title>
		<link>http://www.procata.com/blog/archives/2005/05/10/expert-programmers/#comment-84596</link>
		<dc:creator>Programming Your Way out of a Paper Bag &#124; PHPkitchen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:24:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.procata.com/blog/archives/2005/05/10/expert-programmers/#comment-84596</guid>
		<description>[...] really enjoyed Jeff Moore&#8217;s (creator of WACT) post today, I thought I&#8217;d post it in its entirety.  It&#8217;s a compelling question, what is it [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] really enjoyed Jeff Moore&#8217;s (creator of WACT) post today, I thought I&#8217;d post it in its entirety.  It&#8217;s a compelling question, what is it [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Programming skill level &#124; Just Another Dang Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.procata.com/blog/archives/2005/05/10/expert-programmers/#comment-84459</link>
		<dc:creator>Programming skill level &#124; Just Another Dang Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 03:11:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.procata.com/blog/archives/2005/05/10/expert-programmers/#comment-84459</guid>
		<description>[...] from procata.com  Level 1: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] from procata.com  Level 1: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Camilo</title>
		<link>http://www.procata.com/blog/archives/2005/05/10/expert-programmers/#comment-83843</link>
		<dc:creator>Camilo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:58:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.procata.com/blog/archives/2005/05/10/expert-programmers/#comment-83843</guid>
		<description>I am a newbie in php. I am rather an artist..I had no idea about programming because my area of work is design, art and stuff that you nerds probably despise. However, I need to learn to use some tools necessary to deploy my artistic genius. First I had to learn to use inkscape and illustrator to create simple vectorized graphics, then i wound up learning flash but flash is more than just learning vectorized design, so I found myself learning actionscript (which of course i dont master yet, dont know if i ever will) so when developing my artistic websites i realized that i was too old on my sense of developing static websites since now they are dynamic..the world has changed so much since 1998!..so , of course , i stumbled on php. Do you know how discouraging is to think that it will take me 10 years to learn to program php or actionscript? But then, I realized that it&#039;s not really a matter of being an excelent programmer it&#039;s a matter of getting my art working with other media..which happens to be this one, the one that is touching everybody known as internet, so where do i go from here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a newbie in php. I am rather an artist..I had no idea about programming because my area of work is design, art and stuff that you nerds probably despise. However, I need to learn to use some tools necessary to deploy my artistic genius. First I had to learn to use inkscape and illustrator to create simple vectorized graphics, then i wound up learning flash but flash is more than just learning vectorized design, so I found myself learning actionscript (which of course i dont master yet, dont know if i ever will) so when developing my artistic websites i realized that i was too old on my sense of developing static websites since now they are dynamic..the world has changed so much since 1998!..so , of course , i stumbled on php. Do you know how discouraging is to think that it will take me 10 years to learn to program php or actionscript? But then, I realized that it&#8217;s not really a matter of being an excelent programmer it&#8217;s a matter of getting my art working with other media..which happens to be this one, the one that is touching everybody known as internet, so where do i go from here?</p>
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		<title>By: Ben W</title>
		<link>http://www.procata.com/blog/archives/2005/05/10/expert-programmers/#comment-83787</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 23:50:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.procata.com/blog/archives/2005/05/10/expert-programmers/#comment-83787</guid>
		<description>To those that said they disagree that it takes ten years to learn a programming language. First of all I know this post is old but I need set folks straight. The title &lt;strong&gt;Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years&lt;/strong&gt; has nothing to do with what language you write in. 

Whether &lt;blockquote cite=&quot;&quot;&gt;PHP, Python, JavaScript, Perl, VB/VB.net, ASP/ASP.net, Delphi, D+ (yes it&#039;s real look it up), C++,C, C#, Ruby, Java, Pascal, Assembly, Lisp (maybe not Lisp), etc&lt;/blockquote&gt; in order to become a proficient programmer and write decent code it does take TEN+ years. Anything less your not considered a professional/seasoned programmer but rather an enthusiast!

When you have ten solid years of programming no mater what the language is, it should only take a few weeks to learn syntax and write decent software without making stupid mistakes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To those that said they disagree that it takes ten years to learn a programming language. First of all I know this post is old but I need set folks straight. The title <strong>Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years</strong> has nothing to do with what language you write in. </p>
<p>Whether<br />
<blockquote cite="">PHP, Python, JavaScript, Perl, VB/VB.net, ASP/ASP.net, Delphi, D+ (yes it&#8217;s real look it up), C++,C, C#, Ruby, Java, Pascal, Assembly, Lisp (maybe not Lisp), etc</p></blockquote>
<p> in order to become a proficient programmer and write decent code it does take TEN+ years. Anything less your not considered a professional/seasoned programmer but rather an enthusiast!</p>
<p>When you have ten solid years of programming no mater what the language is, it should only take a few weeks to learn syntax and write decent software without making stupid mistakes.</p>
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		<title>By: flj</title>
		<link>http://www.procata.com/blog/archives/2005/05/10/expert-programmers/#comment-62245</link>
		<dc:creator>flj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jan 2007 18:09:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.procata.com/blog/archives/2005/05/10/expert-programmers/#comment-62245</guid>
		<description>I dunno. Learning a programming language should essentially be a matter of days or weeks, depending on its complexity. Most languages just use different syntax for various constructs - consts, variables, functions, classes, packages, templates and pointers. I think this pretty much sums up all there is in any programming language. It should not take years to get used to a new syntax.

Syntax in most languages is pretty intuitive. However, groking templates is a lot more difficult than understanding variables or consts, for example, so most time you spend when you first encounter a new language construct, not a new syntax (for example switching from the Pascal or Basic &lt;code&gt;For&lt;/code&gt; to the C/C++/Java &lt;code&gt;for&lt;/code&gt; introduces you to a slightly different and more complex language construct, not to a new syntax for exactly the same construct, and this is the kind of difference that generates learning effort.

Also, it really takes a lot of effort to learn a complex library (like the std C lib or the std C++ lib, or STL, or just java.lang).

But neither learning generic programming constructs nor learning a lib have anything to do with actually learning a language, IMO.

It also can be at least nerving to switch from desktop programming to server-side scripting, due to the restrictions imposed by a not so interactive user interaction. But this also has nothing to do with actually learning a language. It doesn&#039;t matter whether you script server-side in php or VBScript, once you got it right you can easily switch, and just spend some more time on learning the different libs, mastering the new language itself should be almost no effort.

Also, learning a language or even fully mastering the ins and outs of a language does not make one a programmer. A seasoned programmer should only take days to fully grok a new language, no matter how complex. But to become an expert programmer, you surely need ten years of programming with more advanced concepts, like classes or templates. And to become productive in a new environment, you surely must spend a lot of time learning a new lib. But the language switch should be the easiest part of it.

(Also, IMO, after going through a few libs, learning new libs should become easy, since you usually find similar or almost similar patterns of how libs are organized and what is available in different libs, specific to various languages. Some not so basic libs are even maintained in various languages, so you don&#039;t really ahve to re-learn them.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I dunno. Learning a programming language should essentially be a matter of days or weeks, depending on its complexity. Most languages just use different syntax for various constructs &#8211; consts, variables, functions, classes, packages, templates and pointers. I think this pretty much sums up all there is in any programming language. It should not take years to get used to a new syntax.</p>
<p>Syntax in most languages is pretty intuitive. However, groking templates is a lot more difficult than understanding variables or consts, for example, so most time you spend when you first encounter a new language construct, not a new syntax (for example switching from the Pascal or Basic <code>For</code> to the C/C++/Java <code>for</code> introduces you to a slightly different and more complex language construct, not to a new syntax for exactly the same construct, and this is the kind of difference that generates learning effort.</p>
<p>Also, it really takes a lot of effort to learn a complex library (like the std C lib or the std C++ lib, or STL, or just java.lang).</p>
<p>But neither learning generic programming constructs nor learning a lib have anything to do with actually learning a language, IMO.</p>
<p>It also can be at least nerving to switch from desktop programming to server-side scripting, due to the restrictions imposed by a not so interactive user interaction. But this also has nothing to do with actually learning a language. It doesn&#8217;t matter whether you script server-side in php or VBScript, once you got it right you can easily switch, and just spend some more time on learning the different libs, mastering the new language itself should be almost no effort.</p>
<p>Also, learning a language or even fully mastering the ins and outs of a language does not make one a programmer. A seasoned programmer should only take days to fully grok a new language, no matter how complex. But to become an expert programmer, you surely need ten years of programming with more advanced concepts, like classes or templates. And to become productive in a new environment, you surely must spend a lot of time learning a new lib. But the language switch should be the easiest part of it.</p>
<p>(Also, IMO, after going through a few libs, learning new libs should become easy, since you usually find similar or almost similar patterns of how libs are organized and what is available in different libs, specific to various languages. Some not so basic libs are even maintained in various languages, so you don&#8217;t really ahve to re-learn them.)</p>
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		<title>By: chris web developer</title>
		<link>http://www.procata.com/blog/archives/2005/05/10/expert-programmers/#comment-57190</link>
		<dc:creator>chris web developer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Dec 2006 11:18:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.procata.com/blog/archives/2005/05/10/expert-programmers/#comment-57190</guid>
		<description>Awesome tips and points regarding rating a good programmer. But 10 years seem to be a long time to master a programming language.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Awesome tips and points regarding rating a good programmer. But 10 years seem to be a long time to master a programming language.</p>
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		<title>By: Hump Day Blues &#124; Professional PHP</title>
		<link>http://www.procata.com/blog/archives/2005/05/10/expert-programmers/#comment-14031</link>
		<dc:creator>Hump Day Blues &#124; Professional PHP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 23:41:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.procata.com/blog/archives/2005/05/10/expert-programmers/#comment-14031</guid>
		<description>[...] PHP Flash Cards: Memorizing trivia with flash cards is not &quot;honing your skills&quot; its &quot;cramming for a test.&quot; (see expert and novice programmers) On the other hand, writing a PHP flash card application IS honing your skills. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] PHP Flash Cards: Memorizing trivia with flash cards is not &#8220;honing your skills&#8221; its &#8220;cramming for a test.&#8221; (see expert and novice programmers) On the other hand, writing a PHP flash card application IS honing your skills. [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Hello.World &#187; Are you an Expert or Novice Programmer? &#187; The Weblog of Matthew Delmarter</title>
		<link>http://www.procata.com/blog/archives/2005/05/10/expert-programmers/#comment-13594</link>
		<dc:creator>Hello.World &#187; Are you an Expert or Novice Programmer? &#187; The Weblog of Matthew Delmarter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jan 2006 22:02:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.procata.com/blog/archives/2005/05/10/expert-programmers/#comment-13594</guid>
		<description>[...] Researchers (Hayes, Bloom) have shown it takes about ten years to develop expertise in any of a wide variety of areas, including chess playing, music composition, painting, piano playing, swimming, tennis, and research in neuropsychology and topology. So &#8230; how long have you been programming? How would you rank your ability? Check out this interesting post to see one authors view of how to rank yourself or others. Could be interesting to think about if you employ programmers as well&#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Researchers (Hayes, Bloom) have shown it takes about ten years to develop expertise in any of a wide variety of areas, including chess playing, music composition, painting, piano playing, swimming, tennis, and research in neuropsychology and topology. So &#8230; how long have you been programming? How would you rank your ability? Check out this interesting post to see one authors view of how to rank yourself or others. Could be interesting to think about if you employ programmers as well&#8230; [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Building a culture of objects in PHP &#124; Professional PHP</title>
		<link>http://www.procata.com/blog/archives/2005/05/10/expert-programmers/#comment-13568</link>
		<dc:creator>Building a culture of objects in PHP &#124; Professional PHP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:44:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.procata.com/blog/archives/2005/05/10/expert-programmers/#comment-13568</guid>
		<description>[...] I can see why this would be the case. PHP is written in C. Being an expert in C programming does not necessarily make one an expert in object oriented programming (nor does it preclude it). My impression from reading the php-dev mailing list is that of a C culture rather than a object culture. (witness the goto vs exceptions debate.) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I can see why this would be the case. PHP is written in C. Being an expert in C programming does not necessarily make one an expert in object oriented programming (nor does it preclude it). My impression from reading the php-dev mailing list is that of a C culture rather than a object culture. (witness the goto vs exceptions debate.) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The HTML Artist  &#187; Blog Archive   &#187; The Complacent Coder</title>
		<link>http://www.procata.com/blog/archives/2005/05/10/expert-programmers/#comment-10357</link>
		<dc:creator>The HTML Artist  &#187; Blog Archive   &#187; The Complacent Coder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Aug 2005 05:37:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.procata.com/blog/archives/2005/05/10/expert-programmers/#comment-10357</guid>
		<description>[...] but I&#8217;m not sure how. 	Through a little googling, I came across a blog entry titled Expert and Novice Programmers which mentions something called the Dreyfus Model o [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] but I&#8217;m not sure how. 	Through a little googling, I came across a blog entry titled Expert and Novice Programmers which mentions something called the Dreyfus Model o [...]</p>
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